Hi!

I see that there are some tutorials about Dynamics in Houdini and there are none (just the very common stuff) about rendering and shading. Does this mean that it is the most easiest things in Houdini, and do developers plan to increase the number of tutorials especially when the interest to Houdini is growing or this software was developed for closed community?

Thank you.

Hey,
this becomes the main Houdini's issues, I hope SESI hears that. There are more and more complaining about lack in that field. The video tutorial on this web page about lighting and rendering are rather funny in compare to today's people expectations.

Saying that, I must add that there at least two points we should think about:

- Mantra is not just a rendering module of Houdini. It's quite a big subsystem, and it's not so easy to write a “tutorial” about it - which meant to lead from a beginning to finished results and give you comprehensive view of environment. I found this incredible difficult when I was trying to present Mantra in one of company interested in.

Similar situation is for Pixar Renderman which is brilliant in a way of providing informations and spreading out knowledge around the world, yet you cannot find too many “tutorials” in a common sense of that word - there are more precise descriptions of problems, techniques, tricks, lectures covering one specific issue etc. Most tutorials out there cover PRMan *implementation is host applications not the Renderman itself and become pretty useless in advanced stuff.

Yet all this work for PRMan is done by enormous amount of people from PIXAR, ILM and many others studios, in a number exceeding whole SESI's stuff.

- this lead us to the second point: Mantra was written with PRMan in mind. In fact most of people here know Mantra from PRMan books, lectures, pdfs. Maybe this sounds funny, but even reading RI specification helps a lot in understanding Mantra though Mantra is not compatible with Renderman specification!

All I said above doesn't mean SESI shouldn't provide solid materials about rendering in Mantra. This must be told: it's rather embarrassing for serious company. The advanced knowledge of Houdini is owned somehow by small family of guys, who could easily met in one middle-size room. Yet nothing is done to provide this knowledge broader. I see the efforts for a youngest users but there is nothing above it.

Tutorials about rendering and shading for Houdini makes any advanced Maya or XSI user laugh. Sad.

I cannot understand how SESI can expect bigger audience with that attitude - considering that rendering is perhaps the strongest point of Houdini (apart of DOP).


cheers,
sy.
- https://renderman.pixar.com/products/rispec/rispec_pdf/RISpec3_2.pdf [renderman.pixar.com]

I agree with symek, although thee is another angle that is being forgotten.

Houdini is a differenet app than most, and alot of people have the perception that Houdini is highly technical and anyone without a computer science degree shouldnt even look at it.

But alot of very smart people here, and on odforce are technically minded. And are able to take advantage of alot of what Houdini can offer them. I on the other hand come from a more artistic background and although i am trying to beef up my technical skills i know that i will never be on par with someone who started off technically and continued to do so for several years.

Kinda like learning languages, once your native tongue has devleoped any other language you leanr will never be as good as someone who is from that country (most of the time, there are quite a few exceptions) .

Plus i dont know the staff count at SESI, and most of all the count on the marketing/tutorial side, because i see tutorials as a way of selling a product pretty much, if you can show how to do something especially in a way that is faster than most apps, it subconsiously tunr into a commerical (in my opinion).

Thats is why i think there needs to be a push on both ends. People who are technical but their skills need to be transfered to Houdini and the Artists who want to make a pretty picture.

I wish i had something to offer, maybe in the future i will, it might not be technically grounded but it would show other artists currently using the product and others that are looking for an alternative, it could be a viable option.

For now though im still going to post questions and hope for answers on the forums.

Just look at my histroy with fur, still trying to get that damn stuff under my control.

by the way, i hear the presentation coming up with Mario and maybe a few others will be screen captured, i think this is a massive step forward, although i doubt i will gain much knowledge i know that other will and im all for that.

-andy

Yes.

Krakatuk
Hi!

I see that there are some tutorials about Dynamics in Houdini and there are none (just the very common stuff) about rendering and shading. Does this mean that it is the most easiest things in Houdini, and do developers plan to increase the number of tutorials especially when the interest to Houdini is growing or this software was developed for closed community?

Thank you.

Plus i dont know the staff count at SESI, and most of all the count on the marketing/tutorial side

Well if you take the Staff count at SESI, you will be amazed to see how few people managed to make a software such as Houdini.

Regarding tutorial about Mantra, I think the basics are there, then one needs to explore. Also I think if ones has a good knowledge of 3D and Rendering (Theory), the tutorials may not be that much of a lack, if it is, well, some studies should be undertaken.

SYmek
- this lead us to the second point: Mantra was written with PRMan in mind.

I would be happy to see a document compiled by SESI comparing similarities and differences between PRMAN and Mantra. Maybe with some real world examples how a code can be ported from renderman to mantra and what are the most typical mistakes.

Lack of good materials for houdini has it source in houdini itself. It has so broad usage, and so many different aproches to the same problem that in fact it is realy difficult to encapsulate all of it's features in comprahensive tutorials.
But as it was said before a little more indepth rendering, and maybe some (3D related) neat tricks in COPs should be on the priority list for SESI.

I've said for years that the Houdini documentation and tutorials should reflect the USE of Houdini in production, no one is rendering spheres on a grid…
there have been some images/animations in the past year or so that should have been packaged up and distributed to Houdini users…
specifically >
the procedural Girl animation
the little dragon animation

the ENTIRE projects
models, rigs, envoronments, materials, VFX setups etc etc
with a broad overview document about how all these things are used together to achieve the end result.
and additional documents to focus on specific areas.

this way a Houdini user could, step by step, see how Houdini is used in a real production situation
also…where are the files from all the demo pics/vids for DOPs etc…the waterfall thing, the balls in the bathtub etc?
it's not a huge deal to keep these files reasonably up to date…
I have yet to understand why these materials are never seen outside of SESI marketing material - I think they would be VERY usefull to all levels of user.

i for one would love that, i learn enough from people's files over at odforce, if these complete files were available, that would be awesome, if they also had documentation, that would be a whole other thing. Explaining to users the techniques that might not be so apparent on the surface is always a luxury.

I remember the rabbit OTL a while back and at the time i hardly knew anything about Houdini, but when was following a rigging tutorial i wanted to know the difference in what SESI was doing. (in the end i still didnt know anything but i think today with examples files now, i understand alot more and if it had documentation, it would probably be difficult NOT to understand).


Excellent point.

arctor
.. USE of Houdini in production..

Totally agree..key word being production here.. there's a similar thread on odforce about this. The link posted has a good example of what ‘production’ examples are. Especially for rendering dops effects these sort of examples would be usefull. There's some dops setup examples but not many how to render them.

http://www.afterworks.com/FumeFX.asp?ID=13 [afterworks.com]

Thanks everyone for the answers!

I just wanted to add that there are two ways to get how something works: deductive and inductive. Someone starts from the basics and then construct the whole picture; someone needs to break the whole picture into parts to see what's there inside of it to get how it works. Well, it's always easier for me to figure something out in deductive way. Dig into parts and then pull my technical basis to the corresponding level, without it all the technical stuff is one heck of a ‘marklar’ for me. But having touched the parts it gets clearer in technical. I even started learn English not from grammar, constructing phrases so they ‘sound well’ - then I learned grammar.

That's why I'd love to see more info on using Houdini as a powerful app for projects and not just for some particular needs.

And would you like fries with that Michael

arctor
the ENTIRE projects
models, rigs, envoronments, materials, VFX setups etc etc
with a broad overview document about how all these things are used together to achieve the end result.
and additional documents to focus on specific areas.

this way a Houdini user could, step by step, see how Houdini is used in a real production situation
also…where are the files from all the demo pics/vids for DOPs etc…the waterfall thing, the balls in the bathtub etc?
it's not a huge deal to keep these files reasonably up to date…
I have yet to understand why these materials are never seen outside of SESI marketing material - I think they would be VERY usefull to all levels of user.

arctor
I've said for years that the Houdini documentation and tutorials should reflect the USE of Houdini in production, no one is rendering spheres on a grid…

Agreed - exactly the reason I'm building the jet.

probbins
And would you like fries with that Michael

I know you're teasing Peter but the point is valid….
I think there is the perception that Houdni learning materials have to be these perfectly constructed/beta tested documents that are designed to stand the test of time…
but the fact is that this isn't and has never been the case…only the most resent tutorials actually work in the software at all….

having a repository of files (the ones made by SESI) that are clearly marked as demo files and unsupported would help everyone…

arctor

probbins
And would you like fries with that Michael

I know you're teasing Peter but the point is valid….

You bet

arctor
I think there is the perception that Houdni learning materials have to be these perfectly constructed/beta tested documents that are designed to stand the test of time…
but the fact is that this isn't and has never been the case…only the most resent tutorials actually work in the software at all….
having a repository of files (the ones made by SESI) that are clearly marked as demo files and unsupported would help everyone…

Hah! you obviously haven't watched any of my video lessons. Talk about informal…

having a repository of files (the ones made by SESI) that are clearly marked as demo files and unsupported would help everyone…

These scenes get HUGE many times. With cached files some are in the 2-4GB range. :shock:
Bit torrents?

I'm more than happy to be a mirror site and I'm mirroring some of the H9 videos now. I'm sure there are more than a few other users who would be willing to be mirrors as well.

Cheers!
steven

I have no problem helping seed these files and if for some reason all the seeders dissapear, people can post in the thread asking for seeders and it can be done. But i doubt there will be a problem. Luxology do it with their video content all the time and they go into the 3 GB range.

I hope this becomes a reality.

Some of the newer tutorials have motivated me to finally make a serious effort to learn Houdini, but its a steep climb. And I can only take in a few balls falling on a grid before my ADD kicks in :cry: Having access to production files with shading and rendering setup would be amazing. Oh, and I heard some talk of videos from SESI events?

Well I would be more than happy to seed files and tools …… As part of a team thats about to embark on building an entire backend for lighting and rendering. Im sure theres going to be some really usefull stuff thats going to come out of it that can be shared.

R

Gerome
Well if you take the Staff count at SESI, you will be amazed to see how few people managed to make a software such as Houdini.

I think wee all live in a constant admiration , this is why such topics exists.

Regarding tutorial about Mantra, I think the basics are there, then one needs to explore. Also I think if ones has a good knowledge of 3D and Rendering (Theory), the tutorials may not be that much of a lack, if it is, well, some studies should be undertaken.

That's the main issue here. I don't have a problem to be closer to computer science, in fact I really appreciate that Houdini allows me understand 3d graphic better by not separating me from technical issues.

But this is not a point. The point is that if pure technical competence is crucial for operating Houdini, this is the best possible choice of SESI to provide such competence. Actually this is how things happen for PRMan or mental ray, there are dozens of materials which simple provide theory via its implementation. This was the only way Pixar could expect PRMan reception. Not only provide a tool, but also provide a stupid tricks for it

There is no point to say that SESI is not a university to teach people algebra, since if SESI won't do that, someone else will do it. Competitors namely… well, algebra is not the best example, but you got my point.

If some kind of knowledge is necessary to operate with Houdini/Mantra, the sources of them should be provided. They don't have to be free or extremely comprehensive , they have to be avaiable. For now there is no single book covering one of the most amazing rendering system out there.

Ironically there is not so much about it. One good page about quaternions for example, that describes what they are, how to use it in Houdini's hscript, vex, vop would be enough to kill the pain of people struggling with that issue. And if I'm not wrong, I remember pretty advanced people here, who had problems with quaternions in Houdini

Cheers,
sy.