How would I make houdini a better modeler? Oh, I'm so glad..

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I would love a hybrid between the Curve SOP and the PolyKnit SOP.

i would love the polyknitSop if it wasn't so smart… and that criss-crossing of mesh…hitting deleteKey and then try it again… maybe it should be really really smart and figure out that you just want to draw a polygon from the points…..

-k
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In my humble opinion, I'd think that almost all of the concerns raised in this thread are achieveable within the current seperate-node paradigm if SESI spend a lot of time trimming down the number of redundant steps it can take between operations, enabling editing across multiple objects - some of which I believe are being actively worked on for the future. Using industry standard and just industry common-sense (like hitting Delete to Dissolve edges or Blast faces, whichever is appropriate based on the selection).
Jason Iversen, Technology Supervisor & FX Pipeline/R+D Lead @ Weta FX
also, http://www.odforce.net [www.odforce.net]
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Educated suggestions = good.

Attitude = bad.

My .02 cents anyway. Plus too much verbosity makes for tedious reading.

Cheers,

J.C.

totally agree… I hate when such sort of Software wars.. happens.. but SPECIALLY… when they've been fought by inexperienced people.

I'd never.. ever .. compare Houdini to Maya due to my lack of Maya knowledge (and not-master houdini knowledge)… but I can define my self an experienced Softimage user (10 years now)… and I CAN compare now Houdini with XSI…. and this easly puts to my mind a comparison between Houdini and Maya (and i've been Max user for long time too, and teacher) … Houdini have everything others packages have/does… I had my headace at first… but now.. after only couple of years of serious Houdini “playing”… i'd never go back to XSI … in fact… stupid me.. I'm looking for Houdini position now… not for “TD or whatever” position that involves any softwares… I dont care at all.. i do feel SO confortable with Houdini that I dont care -what- I've to do.. important thing is -how- I can do it.

that said… I started about software wars… but what I do hate at first… is such attitude of -experienced- modelers which can do everything but judge houdini.. talk shit about houdini.

I've been Lightscape teacher as well (i guess i did too much teaching.. yeah.. now gotta go back learning)….. and I've been so tired to defend it over many people talking shit about it.. without even having -really- tried it.. “its' slow!!… it's hard to use!!”…. bullshits. Try it.. USE IT… then, with the right words and concrete reasons, choose it or not.. but never talk shit about a software you DONT KNOW enought.

oh .. sorry.. i gone too far off topic…. so .. a best modeler?…. yeah .. please DONT try to be like any others package.. and you're on the right way SESI.. thanks.

my 0.02… well. maybe .005.

all the best (To houdini of course)
cheers.

EDIT: sorry .. i coulnt resist. my bad I've been as bad as what I hated to read.. bah

EDIT2: I forgot to mention my first point about -how- to judge a software… yourself. that's it. every software comes from someone's mind .. (maybe more than one mind.. ok)… and eveyone feel more confortable with a software than with other… I have a really good friend and really good ex-houdinier.. which now turned to Cinema4D .. and he feel SO good with it.. that he didnt turned back to houdini .. I appreciated this… since I dunno Cinema4D but I expect to be something I dont like… but as we all might know.. the best software is the best software for you. ther's no best software at all….. hm… ok.. if we dont count houdini :p

J.C.
JcN
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Haha… Never saw the wars like this on Houdini forums

Yes, I know that most of the functionality is there. But as they are right now, they are not very helpful to anyone that doesn't use houdini day in and day out.

Sounds like “Arhhhh gimme the MAX's Material Editor instead of VOP or even VEX Editor”. The flexible software needs some skills. More flexibility - more skills it requires.
SESI should solve some speed issues with modeling of heavy geometry, some bugs (when you have a nice looking model in this Houdini session but in next session you see something weird instead of your pretty model). Some new cool tools will not prevent.
I still dream about ability to control a vertex normals :roll:
But anyway “plain” modeling isn't a main target of Houdini
f = conserve . diffuse . advect . add

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I came from max to Houdini and I have to say I prefer max for modelling. Not that I dislike modelling in Houdini, but some of the modelling SOPs are quite frustrating. PolyKnit criss crosses faces all the time, a lot fo the time PolyCap doesn't work at all and a lot of the time PolySplit's ‘quad’ function doesn't loop round your whole model. Contrast this with the CapHoles modifier and Slice plain options in max which both work perfectly everytime. Also Houdini seems to miss things which are obvious to have, for example max's selection sets, select anything, verts, edges, polys, and simply type a name for your selection in a drop down menu on the main toolbar and it stores the selection, making it availbe anytime, anywhere, with unlimited entries. So simple, but so useful…………….

Houdini does rock though, DOPs and POPs rule…. 8) 8) 8)
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“How can we make Houdini a better modeler?” -a great topic that went horribly wrong due to the person who started it…that's what this has turned into

Anyway, here is my 2 cents on it…

First off, I think that the problem here is more of “How to make Houdini feel like a better modeler for organic, poly work that results in a fixed topology model”. This problem is really about interaction more than anything IMHO. The toolset should be very fluid and efficient (in terms of actions taken to perform an operation, i.e. number of mouse clicks) and all efforts should be made to focus the user attention exclusively in the viewport (absolutely minimal cranking of values in params and network panes).

Regarding the “Procedural” vs “Black Box” methods: By Modeling we shouldn't mean only the creation of a fixed mesh (like some children here are trying to imply), but rather a general means of creating something to render. Not every Modeling session end up with a fixed geometry result.
The concept of modeling in Houdini is this - Procedural modeling hints for dynamic, animated geometry (unlike your typical XSI/MAYA/etc idea of animated extrudes or similar). Procedural modeling, or in fact, node based content creation is the way to go in every case. Now, the problem of how is this graph created and manipulated (how the user “feels it”) is a whole different story altogether…

The first issue to be dealt with is the viewport performance - currently H is noticably slower when heavy models are dispalyed in the viewport.

The tools in Houdini are actually quite good, but need refinement, some in functionality, some in interaction (e.g. Split sometimes splits to wrong edges if they are close)…Like better bevel tool, better viewport poly drawing tool…

So, how can possibly be improved the usual sequence of Select - Apply Command - Modify Params - Exit Command…

1. Selection
Selecting in Houdini feels and behaves archaic…I've made some suggestions before in the beta forum: http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_forum&Itemid=172&page=viewtopic&t=5802&highlight= [sidefx.com]

2. Apply Command
This is the main performance enemy IMHO. The current method of choosing a command (TAB->SubMenu or TAB->Keys) is definitely slowing things down for this kind of work. Essentially it's all about finding an efficient method to popup all commands related to polymodeling. Currently you have 2 or 3 choices. Due to the grouping of ops, the user has to expand the subsection PolyTools, and then pick. The second method - Typing for the command is definitely very slow and nonproductive. Typing POL* or whatever hundreds of times a day just to get the commands is slow. Recently used commands are also slow, because you still have to look for the command (which in turn may have been bumped out of the Recently Used list).

Binding to hotkeys IMHO is excellent but only for some very often used tools like Cut, Delete. Trying to remember many keys for many tools in my experience hasn't been very productive either - my hand has to be in one place of the keyboard, in the area I've binded all my commands - if I move it, I need to feel the marker (tab, spacebar, wahtever) to reorient it and feel where each key is…

The best solution is to include functionality that allows CUSTOM MENUS that are either an extensions of the TAB menu or completely separate altogether (accesible through another hotkey). These menus should allow arbitrary listing of commands and sub-menus - so that the user can arrange his-hers most oftenly used commands first (i.e. popup menu - click to apply) and optional commands in sub-menus.

3. Modify - here the goal shoul be to bind all common params in every sop to viewport handles…It is implemented here and there, but should be extended…

4. Exit Command…
or actually Exit Command and Select->…(repeat the whole cycle here)
This is another reason for slow modeling. Currently there is no quick method to tell Houdini that you've already finished changing params on the current op and the Selection you make is for another modeling Operation of different kind (i.e curently Transform, next Subdivide). My natural approach is to see what I want to change, select it and then apply the command. Currently, to do this I need to Exit the Current Op by pressing S to select something and then choose the command. Or, if I try to apply the different command I have to actually “Re-Confirm” by pressing the Right Mouse Button…Not painful, but it forces you to a least look in the status bar to see the help hint…Maybe a preference should override this default behaviour…

All right, I'll stop here…
For now
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I think there is definately some common themes emerging here and this thread is turning into something useful for Sesi. Everyone has different examples but you can see fairly clearly where the frustations lie and where the improvements could be made.
The trick is finding just the right hammer for every screw
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diula
“How can we make Houdini a better modeler?” -a great topic that went horribly wrong due to the person who started it…that's what this has turned into

Anyway, here is my 2 cents on it…
<..wise thougths are skipped..>
That's not a two cents, that's almost a dollar!
I completely agree with you and wishing all of us that SESI would take a look at it at least.
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The best solution is to include functionality that allows CUSTOM MENUS that are either an extensions of the TAB menu or completely separate altogether (accesible through another hotkey). These menus should allow arbitrary listing of commands and sub-menus - so that the user can arrange his-hers most oftenly used commands first (i.e. popup menu - click to apply) and optional commands in sub-menus.

I don't mean to take away from your points, since they are all valid, but I'd like point out to everyone that you can modify the Tab Menu. Generators, Filters, Managers, and Generic are locked, but you can add, remove and modify all the other entries. You can't nest them, but its better than nothing. (The Managers toolbar doesn't need to be displayed in the Viewer, since you can only interact with it through the network editor.)

Also, there are some Hotkey entries that can speed up the process a bit. As most of you know there is a “q” hotkey which restarts the operation which you just preformed. But there is also a unbound hotkey entry for restart the previous operation. So if you had a grid and did a PolyExtrude and then a PolySplit. To do another PolySplit just hit “q” or if you want to do a PolyExtrude then hit the other hotkey. (Mine is bound to “Q”)
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… I'd like point out to everyone that you can modify the Tab Menu. Generators, Filters, Managers, and Generic are locked, but you can add, remove and modify all the other entries…

Yes, I know we can modify the TAB menu, but I meant that the sequence TAB->Move Cursor Over Sub Menu->Show Menu->Choose Command is very slow.

If users could add Ops to the ROOT of the menu (no nesting)(that's what I meant by extension to the TAB menu), now that would be nice…There would be a size increase in the menu of course, but that's perfectly tolerable IMHO - the speed increase would justify it…
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Another thing…

It's slow to jump to edit another object. I believe it will be productive if the Edit Geometry function will work when one right-clicks on another Object visible in the current SOP Viewer. So the user jums directly to the other Object Sop Net, or even Subnetwork…Or even better, allow for the traditional Alt-Click to work in the Viewer…It seems intuitive I guess…
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Wolfwood
… I'd like point out to everyone that you can modify the Tab Menu. Generators, Filters, Managers, and Generic are locked, but you can add, remove and modify all the other entries…

Yes, I know we can modify the TAB menu, but I meant that the sequence TAB->Move Cursor Over Sub Menu->Show Menu->Choose Command is very slow.

If users could add Ops to the ROOT of the menu (no nesting)(that's what I meant by extension to the TAB menu), now that would be nice…There would be a size increase in the menu of course, but that's perfectly tolerable IMHO - the speed increase would justify it…

the TAB menu its really much faster than you say .. you DONT need to move the mouse over it at all…

just use keyboard.. and SHIFT in case you want to select command faster.. and then Enter.. no mouse at all..

cheers
JcN
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That's true, but new people won't know the names of all the sops, and its a lot of typing when you are working all day…. it's useful but not the whole solution IMHO
The trick is finding just the right hammer for every screw
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sum][one, my point is not to type altogether…I know all the tricks with typing, but they are improper in this case…Typical polymodeling just needs a quick workflow in the viewport…Type the command or move with cursor to expand sub-menu are both slow…

cheers
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diula
Yes, I know we can modify the TAB menu, but I meant that the sequence TAB->Move Cursor Over Sub Menu->Show Menu->Choose Command is very slow.

If users could add Ops to the ROOT of the menu (no nesting)(that's what I meant by extension to the TAB menu), now that would be nice…There would be a size increase in the menu of course, but that's perfectly tolerable IMHO - the speed increase would justify it…

I completely agree. (I was just trying to provide hints at speeding up workflows while we wait for a “better” solution.)

Part of the problem is I'm not sure what a better solution should be. First of all I'm not a big fan of the marking menus/Hotbox in Maya. I hate flipping my wrist all over the place to hit the proper menus to get to the operation I want. But on the other side, I hate taking my hand off the mouse to type in node names.

What about some modifiers for the Tab Menu?
Normal Tab: Brings up the Tab Menu in its current state.

Custom Tab: Tab menu that you have complete control of the layout. Ops in the root level along with nested folders.

Weighted Tab: Brings up a list of the 10 operators listed in order by number of times I've used them in the current session. If I'm doing a tons of Poly Modeling, nodes like PolySplit, PolyKnit, Edit and PolyExtrude will be at the top of the list, while other nodes like Delete and Subdivide will be on the list but further down. You could use the modifier keys to change the mode of the Tab Menu.

Ideas, improvements, suggestions?
Edited by - Aug. 22, 2006 10:35:56
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Another thing…

It's slow to jump to edit another object. I believe it will be productive if the Edit Geometry function will work when one right-clicks on another Object visible in the current SOP Viewer. So the user jums directly to the other Object Sop Net, or even Subnetwork…Or even better, allow for the traditional Alt-Click to work in the Viewer…It seems intuitive I guess…

Personally I like the seperation, it keeps me from accidently editting an object that I don't want to.

If you are in one SOP network, say object A, and you have display everything turned on, you can right click on another object and pick “Edit Geometry” which will jump you into the other Object. Or you can turn on handles from the other object by picking “Enable Handles”.

Its not as fast as an Alt-Click but it beats navigating through the Network Controls.
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Weighted Tab: Brings up a list of the 10 operators listed in order by number of times I've used them in the current session. If I'm doing a tons of Poly Modeling, nodes like PolySplit, PolyKnit, Edit and PolyExtrude will be at the top of the list, while other nodes like Delete and Subdivide will be on the list but further down. You could use the modifier keys to change the mode of the Tab Menu.

Ideas, improvements, suggestions?

That's an interesting idea, it would be like the way windows filters your installed programs so that ones you don't use dissappear. If you don't pick an operator with a few seconds the rest of them pop up…..
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That's an interesting idea, it would be like the way windows filters your installed programs so that ones you don't use dissappear. If you don't pick an operator with a few seconds the rest of them pop up…..

Although I don't like to admit it, that is exactly where I got the idea from.

One thing you have to be careful of is the menu changing once you've gotten used to it in the current session. The PolyExtrude SOP is the 3rd down in the list for the last 10 operations, the next time its moved up to the 2nd, and you accidently pick the Delete SOP.

:?
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sum][one, my point is not to type altogether…I know all the tricks with typing, but they are improper in this case…Typical polymodeling just needs a quick workflow in the viewport…Type the command or move with cursor to expand sub-menu are both slow…

cheers

ok.. i can see the point.. and I can agree with it…. yeah… specially when modeling…
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I should point out that the TAB menu does already keep track of your most recently used items (during that session). The number of most recently used items is also configurable in the preferences. To shorten the mouse movement down, one can completely forego the default menus as well. I still think the fastest way to model is by becoming an expert user and assigning hotkeys to SOPs though. Marc H. has his own set using the numeric keypad.

Does anyone keep a permanent tree view open in their desktop for quick jumping around? There's the autodive option too.
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