Rat Groom wip and updates - First Post and Second deleted

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Hello Hello!

Third time trying to post here! My first post got reported because it had advertising, which I suppose was my watermark on the corner of the image, or a link to my page. The second post because it had too many images and they were to big, and it had a link to my page. So here it goes again, no water marks, small images less I suppose because I can not show a work in progress with too many images. Not sure where this rules are coming from on the work in Progress area to be honest.

Current Groom result from houdini and redshift. I have been trying to push the tool as much as I can.




I will add more images once the post gets approved and I can put things in the comments to see if I can pass the barrier that is banning me from posting
Jesus FC
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Wohooooo the post has been approved! Here are some of the images of the clumps guides and main hair.

This are the main guides. One of the trickiest parts that I normally find in Houdini, mostly because of the interpolation settings, they require some play to get good results, on this case most grooming systems will take this as too many guides but its an usable number in houdini.




I am using groombear for this process not the built in guide groom node.

This is a representation of the big clumps on the main hair



And the small clumps



and here its a small turntable of the result

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Firstly, poor modeling/anatomy of the animal. This is a reoccurring thing for animals that I notice even in big budget commercials and movies for some reason. It spoils the believability even when great hair grooming/rendering has been achieved. I have some theories about why's that happening in studios, but I won't dive into it here.

Secondly, the grooming and the rendering of the hair is kinda unrealistic at the moment. I'm sure you will improve it, I'm just commenting on the posted images.

Not sure what's the purpose of this project of yours
- mere learning of the tools and techniques? - but absent of this info, my advice is to get back to the modeling stage and nail that down.
Cheers!
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pickled
Firstly, poor modeling/anatomy of the animal. This is a reoccurring thing for animals that I notice even in big budget commercials and movies for some reason. It spoils the believability even when great hair grooming/rendering has been achieved. I have some theories about why's that happening in studios, but I won't dive into it here.

Secondly, the grooming and the rendering of the hair is kinda unrealistic at the moment. I'm sure you will improve it, I'm just commenting on the posted images.

Not sure what's the purpose of this project of yours
- mere learning of the tools and techniques? - but absent of this info, my advice is to get back to the modeling stage and nail that down.
Cheers!
pickled
Firstly, poor modeling/anatomy of the animal. This is a reoccurring thing for animals that I notice even in big budget commercials and movies for some reason. It spoils the believability even when great hair grooming/rendering has been achieved. I have some theories about why's that happening in studios, but I won't dive into it here.

Secondly, the grooming and the rendering of the hair is kinda unrealistic at the moment. I'm sure you will improve it, I'm just commenting on the posted images.

Not sure what's the purpose of this project of yours
- mere learning of the tools and techniques? - but absent of this info, my advice is to get back to the modeling stage and nail that down.
Cheers!


Awesome feedback !! Thank you so much, can you elaborate a bit more on the notes? I am aware of the noise and fingers. Anatomy but what areas do you refer too mostly?

At the moment is pushing the limits of the tools as they stand right now under the possibilities without making it a super long project. And yes shading is just a placeholder at the moment. Grooming wise more advancement with no textures and shading will prove to be not as useful as texture will change the look a lot.
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jesusfc
Thank you so much, can you elaborate a bit more on the notes?
I could, but given that text is a low resolution form of communication and people are familiar with the true statement that “an image is worth a thousand words” and we visual artists have extended that concept to “an obj/scene file is worth a thousand images”, I propose to you to send me the .obj model of the rat in order for me to adjust it and send it back to you to evaluate the differences. It's half an hour (at most) task that I'm willing to sacrifice. Well, not really sacrifice, since I have some selfish (or self-centered) reasons to do it. I'm gonna adjust the shapes and proportions and as such you get to keep the topology intact, which should come in handy. Include the eyes or w/e separate from the body pieces you have, as well.
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Sadly I can not share the model mostly because of the nature of the project. Thank you so much for offering to help there thou.I will update some areas like the nose a bit more ignoring the fingers mostly because I don’t need them to be so hero and I kind of find them boring to do Hahahahah. But will improve that part a bit more
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I paid no attention to the paws when I've made my assessment and now that I have, I deem them to be decent, hence that's the least problematic area of the model.
Also, the nose is just a small part of the puzzle.
Now, if you can't share the model, you'll be limited to what people are willing to put into words as far as feedback goes. I, for one, am not willing to write pages describing what the problems that I perceive are. I'd much rather show you.
The nature of the “game”.
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Looks great! Don't worry about the model stuff, if this is a showcase for the groom, it's totally fine.
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I like where this is going! I would ignore the modelling comments since you've already stated this is a groom test. So what's next? You mention you want to keep the project timeline short so it doesn't just keep on going. What have you learned so far? And what would you like to focus on next?

I'd love to see those images side-by-side with whatever reference you're working from. That always helps to see what could be improved.

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Hello everyone! thank you so much for all the support, I was a bit baffled hahaha.

This is my current path and timeline for the next steps.

1. Grooming blocking ( DONE )
2. Modeling Update (DONE )
Using the new attribute paint node, changing models is super friendly as we can project from ray cast which helps a ton when you can blendshape between models.
There was a big topology change at one point and I used WRAP 3D to match between the old and the new model, and with that I could reproject all the painted data from the attribute paint node to the new topology model. Normally this is a nightmare for a groomer and we need a third party software like Mari to do the projections.
3. This is were we are at right now. We will develop basic skin textures with Mari for the visible areas of the skin.
4. After some melanin tests we will decide to use either a full melanin workflow or to go with a dye+ melanin for the fur shader.
5. After the first iteration of lookdev and texturing is done, we will retake the groom to adjust accordingly to get the best results
6. We are rigging the character in maya to create some idle + running caches
7. Posing will happen to as part of the presentation of the project, probably before the rig is done which will let us pose and play with lights at model level.
8. Once we have a final posed render we will go into animation and caching with ABC. to check how it behaves in the groom.
9. As we have a custom distribution system to add custom geos into hair, we will try some extra effects like snow and mud.
10. The snow and mud will let us run some sim tests with extreme states, like wet groom variations, snow and grain solvers, everything running with vdb on groom.
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I would ignore the modelling comments since you've already stated this is a groom test.
There's no clear statement in his first post that it's just a groom test. In fact, from Jesus's last post, it's apparent that the intent is to create a realistic rat.

@Jesus Maybe I'm mistaken and realism is not the aim. Either way, looking forward to the final result.
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pickled
There's no clear statement in his first post that it's just a groom test.

“Rat Groom wip” as a subject is pretty clear. For someone who's got 1737 posts on the forum I'd expect a better sense of context.

@Jesus, what sort of render times are you getting here?
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And “wip” means “just a test”? I was under the impression that it means “work in progress” towards a goal, which I assumed, most likely rightly so judging by his last post, that it's towards a model as realistic as possible. Also, he asked me what the problems with the modeling are, so he cares to at least some degree. So “nah, don't mind the modeling” sentiment seemed out of place then and even more so now, after additional info came in. I'll stop here with this, but man, this is so bizarre…

jesusfc
Anatomy but what areas do you refer too mostly?
Almost everything, but I'll mention these, as they're crucial for making it believable: head (shape, size, eyes, ears, snout, etc) and body length (rats are much longer - 1st link kinda shows that, while in the 2nd it's in their usual hunched over pose by which you probably judged its length)

Take a look at the head comparison below. The differences are stark.
You can get very close to how it needs to look without changing topology, just by pushing/pulling points.
Cheers!

1st link [ptes.org]
2nd link [c8.alamy.com]
Edited by pickled - May 9, 2020 20:40:02

Attachments:
rat_head_comparison.jpg (573.0 KB)

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Also, he asked me what the problems with the modeling
Looking through the thread, looks like you were the first one to mention modelling, hence the query as to what could be changed.

Jesusfc, that's quite a list you have there! Since you're also looking at rigging and animation, I'd suggest getting some basic animation applied as soon as possible. It'll help you see how the fur looks in different poses and in movement. Sometimes the things we focus on with a static model don't apply when the model is in motion.
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Hey Dude, Nice stuff!
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pickled
And “wip” means “just a test”? I was under the impression that it means “work in progress” towards a goal, which I assumed, most likely rightly so judging by his last post, that it's towards a model as realistic as possible. Also, he asked me what the problems with the modeling are, so he cares to at least some degree. So “nah, don't mind the modeling” sentiment seemed out of place then and even more so now, after additional info came in. I'll stop here with this, but man, this is so bizarre…

jesusfc
Anatomy but what areas do you refer too mostly?
Almost everything, but I'll mention these, as they're crucial for making it believable: head (shape, size, eyes, ears, snout, etc) and body length (rats are much longer - 1st link kinda shows that, while in the 2nd it's in their usual hunched over pose by which you probably judged its length)

Take a look at the head comparison below. The differences are stark.
You can get very close to how it needs to look without changing topology, just by pushing/pulling points.
Cheers!



I think you are being cheated by the camera, as here I have a CRAZY 200+ mm which gives that effect. the model is actually anatomical to a head skull scan.





and this is not the final model, this was part of the development process
Edited by jesusfc - May 17, 2020 15:59:17
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You'll have to look at the skin/flesh (face muscles) and eye balls size/placement, then. The model doesn't look realistic from your posted pics, even if I were to take into account that they're captured from an almost isometric view.
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You'll have to look at the skin/flesh (face muscles) and eye balls size/placement, then. The model doesn't look realistic from your posted pics, even if I were to take into account that they're captured from an almost isometric view.
Yeah I think that level of realism on the model change so much from rat and rat and breed, that is not part of the goal of the series
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I don't think I ever saw a rat that looks like this,regardless of breed. But, if this is not an important part of this project, you should've probably said so from the moment I criticized the work (with good intentions, mind you) instead of praising my feedback. Like, before I received a vitriol filled private message, from an unnamed user.

Now, I'm going to take this as a challenge and make a rat of my own. I'm looking forward to your feedback, so that we can hopefully learn something from each other
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pickled
I don't think I ever saw a rat that looks like this,regardless of breed. But, if this is not an important part of this project, you should've probably said so from the moment I criticized the work (with good intentions, mind you) instead of praising my feedback. Like, before I received a vitriol filled private message, from an unnamed user.

Now, I'm going to take this as a challenge and make a rat of my own. I'm looking forward to your feedback, so that we can hopefully learn something from each other


Go for it man!
Jesus FC
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