McNistor
If old functionality is bad, then it should be removed not expand on it. Using two keys on the other side of the keyboard just for loop/ring selection was hardly a modeler's wet dream.
I don't know what options have been removed, so please explain. I know there was one “walking” IIRC or something like that and I must admit that I'm ignorant about it - never used a similar one in Softimage therefore I might not know what I'm missing.

Well, we had one key to select boundary of hole in geometry, right now we have to SHIFT + A + LMB as many times as we need to cover whole hole.

McNistor
Are we talking about loop/ring selection? ‘Cause they don’t…

Nope, simple SHIFT + LMB or SHIFT + MMB.

McNistor
To remove from selection you press Ctrl, like you do in many OS's and 3d apps. Not that this should matter but it is convenient nonetheless.
Shift+RMB does nothing indeed and with this occasion I propose that we use this for a different menu to the simple RMB one. We'll think about something, I'm sure we'll run out of menus before of tools to put in them.

It was just a proposition.

SHIFT + RMB is used as repeat last action when you havse selected something and you made some operation before (for example delete or group). Why? o_O

McNistor
Simple yes, fast no.
When Adsk took over Softimage they implemented exactly this (to make Maya users feel more at home I presume) and I've had plenty of time to use it. To this day I still use the Softimage model (which is very similar to H14) because it's a lot faster.
Just think about it, what's faster:
1. Shift + double LMB to add to selection for each loop
2. hold Shift + MMB on each loop?

Double LMB WITHOUT pressed any key should create loop. SHIFT + Double LMB to add to selection.
Right now you have to have pressed A + MMB or SHIFT + A + MMB to add to selection.

McNistor
This is not the first time I ask this question and I still don't understand how someone can choose 1 over 2. It's basically one (1) click vs two (2) clicks, ergo double the work.

That's why I don't understand why you want to replace 1 or 2 keys (my version) with 2 or 3 keys () your version)


EDIT: Oh, and Double clicking on Geometry without selected anything should select all elements of the type we are in currently. If polygon selection than select all polygons. If point selection then select all points. if edge… you know the story.

Ok, it looks that we got whole topic now for hotkeys => http://forums.odforce.net/topic/21864-houdini-14-hotkeys-discussion-forked-from-h14-announcement-thread/ [forums.odforce.net]

Lets move our talk there.

Just hire Vitaly Bulgarov, and he would design the ultimate modeling workflow

This kind of major system design requires significant amount of time, iteration and continuous feedback to perfect.



For example selection add/remove could be designed in a way where addition is default (holding down a key is NOT required). You have a hotkey to clear the current selection or you click a blank area.

For removing you could hold down Ctrl or Alt, etc.


Another obvious example: When you are modeling, you always rotate the view around the part you are modeling. So whatever component you have selected, is the center at which the view rotates around. This is the default in Max.

Now Houdini uses a hotkey for this (Space Z). You have to ask yourself: Would you ever not want to rotate the view around the currently selected components when modeling? I never did nor have I ever seen anyone asking for that.

But even if you did, this would still be a insignificant case by orders of magnitude which is the one that should be handled by a hotkey, not the other way around.

Max has the largest user base and the vast majority was crying to have this option to be the default out of the 3 options as this was the first thing people changed as soon as they installed Max. I have never seen anyone changing this to any other after this.

Also the Houdini hotkey for this, moves the view so the new view center is located at the center of the viewport.

So the question is, is this an expensive operation in Houdini that it's designed this way to require a hotkey each time or lack of modeling experience/feedback?

If you have a lot of modeling experience, you see the lack of these things immediately. It's not a feature from the other apps but merely what makes more sense.



There are probably a couple hundred workflow decisions that needs to be made for the modeling experience to become extremely intuitive that SESI needs to hire the right guys like Vitaly to get it right IMO.

@mantragora With the risk of sounding dismissive I must inform you that I have no desire to continue the discussion about selections for two simple reasons: one is that it works for me (it's almost the same as Softimage which I use for years) and two, I've discussed this topic for pages in another thread and argued and debated and we finally have what I consider to be a solid selection model that's in some sense even better than Softimage's. Lots of people agree too if I were to appeal to the popularity argument which by no means should stop you expressing your disappointments about this topic.

@pusat Bulgarov would come up with Softimage's workflow if someone was to hire him to conceive a modeling workflow - that's what he uses because that's the best among what he tried probably, not much different from anyone else's choice I guess.

Another obvious example: When you are modeling, you always rotate the view around the part you are modeling. So whatever component you have selected, is the center at which the view rotates around. This is the default in Max.

I've proposed this for a while now, hopefully we'll see this implemented sooner rather than later.

Now Houdini uses a hotkey for this (Space Z). You have to ask yourself: Would you ever not want to rotate the view around the currently selected components when modeling? I never did nor have I ever seen anyone asking for that.

But but… I have :cry:

McNistor
@pusat Bulgarov would come up with Softimage's workflow if someone was to hire him to conceive a modeling workflow - that's what he uses because that's the best among what he tried probably, not much different from anyone else's choice I guess.

Yes but if he was asked to design the new modeling workflow for Houdini, I am sure he could improve on Softimage workflow better than almost everyone IMO. He would definitely have a lot of great ideas on what could be improved and what change would be needed to accomplish this rather than a 1 to 1 replica.

Because even though Softimage was the best from what he tried, it was definitely not perfect. I assume he was never involved in Softimage development either.

Hiring him for this shouldn't be a massive cost and I feel he would be happy to help SESI. Just a wild hunch

McNistor
But but… I have :cry:

But does it outnumber the times you haven't? Because otherwise the default behaviour in Houdini is to use the center of the model.

If you are modeling a commercial airliner and working on the front of the plane close to the cockpit, why would you want the view to use the center of the plane as the center of viewport rotation which will require many zoom, pan, and tumble instead of a simple tumbling?

So, I said that I don't want to talk about selection any longer and I'm still behind that statement but I'd like to close with two things (hm this “two things” re-occurrence starts to worry me):

one is that you're not considering a lot of stuff due to lack of experience with this new Houdini (Softimage) selection model. For example:

Double LMB WITHOUT pressed any key should create loop. SHIFT + Double LMB to add to selection.
Right now you have to have pressed A + MMB or SHIFT + A + MMB to add to selection.

You just count the number of keys and mouse buttons used (not clicks) and conclude that it's worse. Problem is, the keys are just held pressed while you single click around. It's miles better to hold down two keys and single click for each loop than to hold one key and double click for each loop. It's better because it's faster, not necessarily easier to perform.



Another point is this: Softimage model and consequently Houdini's, is a production proven model that delighted many users for lots of years.

It might be anecdotal evidence, but I know of no Softimage user that loved to model in Maya (from which the double click for loop comes) but I know quite a few Maya users that started using Softimage and never wanted to go back to Maya, at least not for poly modeling.

Now I'm going back to my modeling, so that next time pusat proposes me instead of Bulgarov to be hired by SESI. 8)

McNistor
Now I'm going back to my modeling, so that next time pusat proposes me instead of Bulgarov to be hired by SESI. 8)

You are next in the list right after Rafael Grassetti :wink:

Paying the price for being a generalist for so many years…

https://youtu.be/CJaMl9XcR5E [youtu.be]

nice one vux!

is this a different tool than your stretch tool or more a complement ?

looking for more new on this promising modeling tools ;-)

NNois
is this a different tool than your stretch tool or more a complement ?

looking for more new on this promising modeling tools ;-)

This is new selector-based tool system.
Stretch tool will be included.

https://youtu.be/FCmNd9cG2TE [youtu.be]

vux

NNois
is this a different tool than your stretch tool or more a complement ?

looking for more new on this promising modeling tools ;-)

This is new selector-based tool system.
Stretch tool will be included.

Have you post it it already on Orbolt? If yes, just place the link in here. thanks

vux
https://youtu.be/FCmNd9cG2TE [youtu.be]

Your tool keeps getting better at every iteration

pusat

vux
https://youtu.be/FCmNd9cG2TE [youtu.be]

Your tool keeps getting better at every iteration

Yes it is

Constantin X

vux

NNois
is this a different tool than your stretch tool or more a complement ?

looking for more new on this promising modeling tools ;-)

This is new selector-based tool system.
Stretch tool will be included.

Have you post it it already on Orbolt? If yes, just place the link in here. thanks

It is for Orbolt only, but in near future

but will it have edge sliding vux?

Werner Ziemerink
but will it have edge sliding vux?

Edge sliding not so difficult (especcially with VEX) as USER EXPERIENCE features, that have very high priority at this stage

As you can see this framework very similar to ZBrush ZModeler. It has:
1. Tools - that help user to edit polygons
2. Selectors - for selecting geometry in many different ways.

https://youtu.be/CBxL5iBl9lQ [youtu.be]
In this video I want to show you setup widget concept. This widget allow us to edit selectors and tools prefs, and have stack with last 3 tools and selectors

I pretty finished base selectors and now working on polygon tools

I can't speak directly about your tool since I haven't tried it, but regarding latest Zbrush box modeling tools, I speak from direct experience with it - it's a step backwards regarding box modeling. Everything takes 10x more time to do than in a traditional (max, modo, xsi, even houdini.) poly modeler. It's better to have box modeling in Zbrush than not to - it gives one more option to those artists that are using only Zbrush - but on an absolute scale, it's crap.