This may not solicit an answer from those who know, but I was specifically wondering about the overall intentions of the initiators of the Apprentice “program” and how they might apply to those who probably never will be able to afford a commercial license of Houdini for production work.

For hypothetical purposes, let us say there are some users who become very proficient at using Houdini in its many aspects and also possess teaching skills. However, they may not be, for a variety of reasons, capable of entering the employ of a major or minor studio. What opportunities might present themselves to such people? I have read that there is a shortage of trainers in the uses of Houdini as there are in skilled production people. How might skilled, yet independent freelancers. find a niche for their talents, not possessing commercial licenses of Houdini, but possessing high quality production and teaching skills. (I have read the “trainer” and “certification” pages of the web site and written requesting information by means of the appropriate links).

These are many questions. Feel free to answer as few as desired.

Sincerely,

Greg Smith

Well, I'm certainly not speaking for SESI, but I think the intentions were fairly transparent: Houdini has been suffering from a perception that it was “too techie” and only mathematicians could use it effectively. The Apprentice program was aimed squarely at that perception - to get Houdini “out there” and allow anyone with an interest to see what all the hubbub was about. I think it was a great idea and I suspect was very successful. Animators can see what *true* proceduralism is and how much time it can save you, plus the work put into tutorials was worth it alone.

If you're really aiming at Houdini pricing(which I suspect you are ), I would imagine that the Apprentice program was unrelated to that. Don't forget, there are alternatives to the fullup Houdini Master that are more affordable. However, yup - it's pricey. With recent price drops from both Maya and XSI this is becoming relevant, but not just with individual animators - with the studios too(as a partner here, I can attest to that ). I think it's an unrelated issue to Apprentice, personally.

My attitude is rather pragmatic about this issue: it's evolution. Put the product out there at the price you want. People will either buy it or not - adjust pricing and options accordingly. I'll leave that to the sales department… Of course, I'd like to see lower prices…

Cheers,

J.C.

Speaking from the point of view of someone that has just started out towards the goal of becoming an animator (as in, employed in some capacity doing just that) I think the apprentice edition (or non-commercial) is wonderful. I've tried similar types of Maye (ple) and XSI (experience) and I've found that houdini is more robust, from my limited point-of-view. I don't think it should put any limits on anyone skiled in Houdini's use. What would it matter if you learned from the non-commercial edition or the production/commercial version? If you have the skills and can show it, I would think that would make a great resume in and of itself. The NC version of Houdini, as far as I know, is only limited in what it's final rendered output is. Everything else is pretty much the same in either version. IF you were planning on making a career of creating animated scenes, FOR MONEY, then you'd probably have to purchase the commercial version (which should now be capable of a tax write-off as it would be for business use). As for teaching, I'd think that would depend on how you were going about that; will you be free-lance? Check with individual clients; if it's for school of some sort, check with them; I'm sure that in any case, demonstrable skills would go a long way. Just my opinion.

jc

Houdini Select is very well priced, it costs less than Maya Complete. Select + Halo is cheaper than XSI. I wouldn't imagine it would take too many freelance contracts to recoup that investment.

It seems there is then a gap in the pricing, with Master costing $17,000 - that's a huge extra expense for character tools if that's all you wanted from it (unless you are a studio . I know I wouldnt seriously use the RIB/renderman stuff. Anyway I believe Escape is designed to fill this gap.

Interesting question. I suspect that it's good for SESI if they occupy the ‘Headspace’ of other software users. Steve Jobs has done something similar with the ipod . Now you have all these Win users drooling over Apple products. doesn't matter that it's only an ipod they're still drooling over an Apple product That's very valuable brand real estate.
SESI are doing that with Maya, Max and XSI users. It's an excellent product so it should stick. I came from a Maya background then used Houdini for a couple of years and am now having to go back to Maya which is a bit like having to put your brain back into a cage after being let out to play for a couple years. It really does hurt but it comes down to Houdini seats and in London it's not too good. I'd say 50 seats maximum for the usual uses like FX. Hundreds of Maya and Max jobs. I'm hoping it will get better soon so I can go out and play again

B.J.:

I'm beginning to think that it may simply be a case of sadistic cruelty on the part of Side-FX. Giving the little guy access to such wonderful tools, knowing full well that these saps are never going to be able to afford their product smacks of something sinister. Like that pusher giving kids heroin on the street for “free”. Yeah, the first hit is always free.

I've looked at this thing from a bunch of different angles - one being that Side-FX knows there are a lack of trained personnel who have become somewhat expert in some aspect of their software. But, falling into the category of those who are of humble means, such folk will only acquire skills that the true corporate clients of Side-FX need to recruit as employees.

Then there is the aspect of some obtaining “trainer” status. Certified, of course. So, perhaps there really is a need for “trainers”, certified trainers worldwide. O.K., but who are these trainers going to train? Anybody needing Houdini training will fall into the class of those people who can't afford the thing in the first place, or of those who have obtained employment at one of the 3 Huge companies already signed on for the long haul. Certainly, these firms have trainers and training programs of their own already.

Anyone who has already forked over $17,000 per seat, surely has the means to use and instruct others in the use of the software proficiently, so that rules out the opportunity of an inderpendent trainer being recruited for training anyone who works for one of the 3 major studios using Houdini on a regular basis.

No, on second thought, I think this is simply a push from Side-FX software to get more “content” of a professional quality produced by some of these “little guys” who actually have talent, and to get it for free. Some of these little guys simply cannot say “no!” to the candy being offered. Any of them who persist through the long haul of mastering this incredibly technical piece of software will not easily be persuaded to “dump it” once they've invested the hours. So what are they going to do? Produce some excellent examples of what the program can do. Animations, (character animations that are obviously missing from the galleries), inventive use of shaders and particles, etc. Material to populate several of the gallery expositions on the web, thus making Houdini a more “popular” tool, even though the reality is that this segment of the 3D population will never be those who personally will be able to use the software for commercial purposes, at least in any capacity other than as an employee of one of the firms who represent their real clients.

O.K., this may be a slightly synical view of the motives of Side-FX software, but I've got to believe that what they do by giving away full versions of non-commercial software has to be mainly in their best interest and really not particularly in the interest in those engaged in swallowing the promotion. The fact that they state that the program can be cancelled at any time makes me hesitate, being one of these little guys, in spending the necessary hours necessary tomaster it.

Tell me I am wrong and that these guys are really just doing a really good deed for humanity in general and the 3D populace, specificaly.

Greg Smith

If they do shut down the apprentice version I will be disapointed but I have gained experience in 3D that I would not have otherwise.
Personaly I really am not well enough placed to look a gift horse in the mouth and ask for his papers.
I plan on being a digital animator, and I will be. I hope to gain enough knowledge to create a demo reel, one that has the sidefx logo stamped on it aught to carry some clout.
So the big companies have their own trainers, those trainers started with the same thing I have, a drive to learn, to create, to be better, I now have a tool that will help me.
I hope that by the time I am good enough to hire, the price of Houdini Master will have dropped some, I am saving, I Believe I will need it.

I just looked at this post and realised that I was ranting and deleted 3/4's of it.

All I can really say is if you can not except something that is free then say, “Thank you, no,” and walk away.

Bruce - you're waaaaaay off base here - trying to find an almost paranoic conspiracy where there's simply none. I've been using SESI products since their earliest days - before Houdini, and I'm priviledged to know a number of people that work there. You may not be aware of it, but *all* 3D software used to be highly expensive, along with the workstations(you don't want to know). SESI has made the decision, for better or worse, to not fall into the recent price slashing that has affected the industry. Personally, I think this “ghettoizes” the industry, where 3D software becomes almost freebies to give away with other, higher priced products in corporations that swallow up an app as easily as we do a breakfast banana. This cheapens it, and hurts it in the long run.

Mind you - I'd like to see prices come down - I think in today's market it's still too high. However, you're reading all sorts of things here that frankly, I think you're imagining. I too think it's rather overpriced, but at the same time I know SESI isn't a company owned by a huge corporation that can afford to write it off as a cost of doing business - as opposed to much of their competition.

I'm a little baffled at why you're so upset with being given the opportunity to train for free on some really amazing software. Make your opinions known, for sure, about the prices, but all this inference that they're somehow “using” you to advertise their product is absurb and could be equally applied to any of their competition!

J.C.

I agree with you 100%, John.

Benefits to SESI:

*) Houdini gets exposure in parts of the market they can't usually reach.
*) Side Effects get feedback from a wider user base.
*) Houdini cracks become unnecessary for the majority of people driven to learn effects, Houdini-style.


Benefits to you:

*) If you don't work for a company that owns Houdini, then you get the opportunity of broadening your skillset. It's definately one of the most powerful workbenches out there for learning about effects and such. You get some exposure to the low-level mechanics behind CG that you don't from other software.
*) If you do work for a company that has bought Houdini, then you can go home at night, prototype an idea on Apprentice and then replicate your ideas in the morning.
*) Houdini-owning employers get the benefit of hiring people with skills in Houdini that they might not get anywhere else.
*) Houdini is fun. You get to talk about COPs, POPs, SOPs, CHOPs and other fun terms that you won't find anywhere else!


And besides, if you compare Houdini Select or Escape to Maya, etc. you are not far off base, price-wise. Mantra is an excellent renderer and you're not forced to buy 5 Renderman licenses and MTor (not cheap) to get some amazing power in your images. Learning to handle Mantra is directly applicable to learning Renderman. Anything you learn with mantra, shaderwriting-wise is very close to Renderman's methodology. I don't think you get MTor and Renderman as part of the Maya PLE, do you?

Obviously Maya PLE and the other free programmes can be yanked at any time too. Everyones doing it.

I thought SESI did have a strategy:- to fill the world with Apprentice users so that more companies would switch to using Houdini, thus generating more money for SESI which they'd invest in making Houdini even better and more affordable. I thought that was clear to all.

brucegregory
Tell me I am wrong and that these guys are really just doing a really good deed for humanity in general and the 3D populace, specificaly.

I won't. I do not expect a 3D software company to exist for the good of humanity or the 3D population, in the sense you suggest.
As for some of your other concerns, I think many of them fall under the term “marketing”. And I think this is “a good thing” to be done by a company, in a marketplace. They try to gain a larger user base for a great, capable, “alternative” package.
Incidentally, I think that giving the oportunity to learn a professional, high-end software to anyone is really good for the 3D population, and humanity in general. Hmmm, maybe I won't like them anymore… :wink:

Of course, all that a company such as Side-FX should really focus on is making their company profitable so they can stay in business. I was making an attempt at being “tongue-in-cheek” regarding them doing a great deed for humanity. Personally, I never look a gift horse in the mouth, but first I do try to determine if it is, indeed a horse, and if it is, indeed, a gift. And, do I need a horse? Maybe a goat would be less trouble and cheaper to feed. Also, a gift, by definition, is something that cannot be recinded. Pardon me, for a moment, for waxing allegorical:

Giving you a tool, on loan, is just that, a loan. The owner of the tool can ask for it back any time he chooses. And further, if the tool lender tells me right at the door that I can't use that tool in my garden, then it turns out to be a very particular kind of loan.

If I asked to borrow a tool from someone, because I needed it to get a job done, and the lender consents for me to use the tool for that purpose, then I have gotten something for nothing and have benefitted from the generosity of the lender, because he is letting me use it, for nothing, to get that job I need to do, done. In the case of the Side-FX software company, they have not given me permission to use their tool to get a job done. In fact, they prohibit it. They have said that I can practice using the tool in their garden so that I can develop my skill at using their particular tool, for whatever reason I may, in future, apply that skill to. They have even suggested that this might be useful to me if I wanted to go and work in Mr. MacGregor's garden, and he might even pay me to do so, since he is the proud owner of one of their tools.

If I accept their offer of training in their garden to develop my skill, then I do not walk away with nothing. I walk away with knowledge of how to use their tool. Of course, what I really needed was to get a particular job done in my own garden. It did seem nice of them, however, to offer to let me use their tool, but after thinking about it a little, I wasn't too keen on doing a bit of shoveling over there, at their place, especially after finding out that it was a very complicated tool to use, and would take many months to get a grip on, so to speak.

So, you see, I was merely attempting to find out what avenues lay open for someone having spent many months learning to use this very expensive and complicated tool. Once having acquired the skill to use it, must I only use it in another similar circumstance, for someone affluent enough to own the tool itself, or were there more independent means of using it, for my own, particular benefit?

I don't think it is very realistic to put much stock in the mere hope that such a company will kindly lower the price, into the range someone like myself can afford, for ownership of their very excellent and useful tool. There is every possibility, in today's incredibly competitive tool manufacturing marketplace, that this particular company may not survive at all. Maybe the Chinese will copy it and start to sell it cheaper.

I have also worked for Mr. MacGregor before, and I didn't really fancy going back to work for him, however, this may be an ideal opportunity for some of you not having had that pleasure.

Greg Smith

One more point I 'd like to make. My analogy really is inadequate for the following reason: even if I could afford, at some future date, this most excellent tool, I can never really own it at all. I can only buy the permission of Side-FX software for me to use the tool for a period of time. This is the true nature and the reality of software licensing. It is more like a rental from a tool rental store, than the purchase of a tool from a local hardware store.

I certainly am not arguing the fact that Houdini is a really excellent tool for producing 3D animated content. Merely, about the true nature of the Apprentice program and what real benefits a potential enrollee might receive for doing so.

So, there really is no horse and there really is no gift to be discussed in this context.

Greg Smith

I thought that you did indeed own a license for life if you bought it. You just wouldn't have access to the updates unless you paid support. Am I in the dark? (Honestly, I have no idea.)

I'd say if nothing else, your learning Houdini can result in skills that can be applied to many (or any) packages. I guess there'd a kind of break-even point where getting dirty with the idiosyncrasies of the package is not going to pay off when applying these skills to another piece of software. If you find yourself drinking too much coffee and rubbing bleary eyes over Houdini, you may have reached that point already

Things have changed, or to be more accurate - they've actually been defined(it was rather vague before). Essentially, you cannot literally *own* a cut of software anymore. Someone may say you do, but that doesn't make it so. Most EULAs nowadays say something to the effect that you are paying a fee that will allow you to run the software for a period of time. Pixar's Renderman, for instance, only issues 1 year licenses. If we decide to make the permanent jump from rman to mantra next year(and I dont think we will just yet ), then we're not stuck with an old version without support - we're going to be unable to run it, period. I don't have Houdini in front of me right now, but I'm quite certain there's a finite period of time for Houdini too - although I think it's a lot longer than one year.

All this stemmed from endless court actions and piracy, and tries to lose the concept of a software product as a tangible bunch of files on a disk, and turns them into a set of procedures that you're licensing.

Greg - I'm still not so sure what sort of answer you expect. You seem to think that your personal decision to train on software(of your own free will, in a job market open to investigation, and you knew the prices I might add) has somehow left you in the lurch - used somehow. I can't answer to that except to say you might want to think about your actions next time before investing them. There's nothing happening here that isn't happening with any software of any price in any market that offers a demo.

Is this your way of asking for cheap prices? I don't think it will work.

:?

J.C.

Hey All,

Well I double checked to make sure I was not crazy but SideFx does not list a yearly timeout on the license like Maya, Renderman, etc does. Now they do on the educational licenses say 1 year, but thats the educational. I believe for legal purposes they would have to list that little fact about a timeout for the licenses along with the prices otherwise it might be viewed as false advertising in the US. I don't know Canada's laws. SESI has a Cali office so I figured they would have the legal side for US down too. As a reponse to greg and I really don't want to make a big debate about this. As far as SESI intentions I think they are win win for both sides. Yes we do advertise for SESI by creating work in their programs and posting on other sites and forums like CGTalk and CGChannel or even Highend3d. However SideFx also promotes those that standout to the industry and we stand a much better chance at getting hired and remembered. Something I am very greatful for and work harder in their program because of it. Yes I am partial to Houdini. Mind you I know Houdini, Maya, 3DS Max, Lightwave, Ray Dream, Blender, XFrog and more. I have not learned softimage XSI. So I can be pretty sure of why I like their product over the others. Honestly its my opinion they have the best overall 3D animation system. Yes it does create more people that know Houdini and give them a better chance of selling their software. I fail to see though how this is wrong. You have to know an application in order to use it. No company is just going to train you from ground up. Why should they. You have nothing to offer them if you know nothing. They are going to choose those that can preform the best within their environment excluding the social environment. That does tend to be one of the major factors in hiring. If a company does not turn a profit they go out of business and then there would be no more free learning edition. All the other major packages are doing a learning edition but with more restrictions. So pick and choose which one you want to learn its up to you. If you don't like having to learn a package then prehaps another field away from CG would be more appealing to you.

Cheers,
Nate Nesler

Geez Bruce, I had to pay CAD$ 15,000.00
at a local College to learn the tool you are learning for free… I really don't know what's your problem.

Hey Greg,

Oh if you are just worried about price then you could learn a very low end program for low end of the CG Animation Market. The program is called Animation Master. Normally it goes for $300 but students can buy it for like $100 and use it commerically. Mind you it does not have even a 10th the power that Houdini has. It is also not desired by most of the animation industry because it is so limited. Yes I know about Killer Bean and they are a great animation series. http://www.sharbor.com/ [sharbor.com] Is a good place to buy it. If you think Houdini is Expensive now you should have seen the animation package pricing like just 5 years ago. I think you would have been floored. If I remember right and I very well may not I think maya was like $100,000. If I remember right the previous pricing of maya before they went to the whole $16,000 was $30,000 or $32,000. I know 3DS has pretty much always been between $4,000 and $3,000.

Cheers,
Nate Nesler

I think everyone has missed what I was trying to point out, or really, uncover for myself - that being the overall usefulness of enlisting one's time in the Apprentice program. If you read my posts, you could readily see that I am aware of the benefits of learning Houdini as far as obtaining skills for entering the EMPLOY of someone else. My interests do not lie in becoming someone's employee. I then, mentioned the promotion of the idea of becoming a certified trainer, as has been promoted rather extensively in conjunction with the Apprentice Program on the Side-FX website, seeing that for a person, not being in the category of purchasing the Houdini software for commercial puposes, that would be the only other use that having a broad skillset in Houdini that might produce “revenue” for the learner.

Looking for, and hoping for some reply from those who actually are involved in making the software, regarding the real potential for the Houdini training market, (and there has been no reply), I don't yet know what to conclude, other than what I have posted here - that there really are no tangible training opportunities for the freelance. I think it is, now, plain to see that the small-time, freelance person, who wants to remain so, is not going to benefit, particularly, from spending the time needed to learn this superior quality 3D software, given that the only opportunities mentioned by the users, (some long time users), and the lack of interest shown by the Side-FX staff in answering this inquiry would tend to point that way.

In essence, Houdini Apprentice training will benefit, mainly, those wanting to obtain training that might qualify them for entering the employ of one of the 3 large, remaining, film production companies. As an aside, I think the lines have been drawn regarding the tendencies of the large studios, this does not appear to be in the direction of choosing a complex procedural program as their primary software platform of choice. Being highly technical in nature, a program like Houdini requires the enlisted company to employ a rather large and expensive cadre of technicians to supply “artists” with a more streamlined environment for production. It is an extra step and an extra cost for the studio to consider. The tendancy, as it appears to me, is to adopt software that the average “artist” can wield all by himself, without the need to consult much with a dedicated technical staff. I believe the days of the “technician as artist” are numbered.

The push of my commentary has really been from the angle of what opportunities are available for the little guy - the freelance who has talent, skill, and something worth saying via the medium of the animated story. The individual, rather than a cog in the wheel of today's 3D production Borg. My search, in the direction of Houdini, was from this overall perspective. Now that I have looked, in depth, at the Apprentice program, I don't think there is a profitable avenue for the little guy. There may be a considerable opportunity, as represented by the Apprentice Program, for the hobbyist, (also not holding the funds necessary for Houdini purchase), wanting to make a spectacular statement of their talents, using Houdini as their turnkey solution.

I certainly am aware that all of the major 3D software vendors are making a similar push - and they are all acting in their own interest. The little guy must still be aware of what the true nature of what is being offered for “free” by these various companies is. That's all. Enrollees in any of the “learning edition” or “apprentice” programs need to be aware that the program itself could be pulled down as soon as the companies involved realize that they are no longer profitable to them. Where you are in the learning curve at that time will determine whether it was beneficial to you, or not.

Regarding the potential for employment by any of the 3 major studios using Houdini, that deserves looking into in some depth, before any “apprentice” starts down the long path of learning Houdini - do these studios need technicians and experienced technical directors, who also know Houdini, or are they looking for “artists” who can use Houdini proficiently? My guess, and that is all it is, is that they want experienced personnel, strong technical people - and if they have artistic ability added to these technical skills, that would be a plus.

Greg Smith

Well I double checked to make sure I was not crazy but SideFx does not list a yearly timeout on the license

Our licenses here expire in 2025. Not next year perhaps , but there is a limit, just to make the point.

Now, if anyone would ever run 20+ year old software in this business is another thing…

Greg - this thread seems endless and I'm not sure you're ever going to get the answer you want. I will point out that you can visit our website and take note of how many people are in the 3D department. We're hardly DD.

Cheers,

J.C.