today i've read in journals that
“
Houdini 11.0.477: Remove the occlusion material, since the recommended way to render ambient occlusion is using the environment light.
”
what do you think of this step?
if i use environment light i still need to assign basic lambert or clay material to get pure AO pass
assigning AO Material is easier i think or at least having it in material library could not hurt and may help users to learn building materials by investigating them

environment light or Light template with GI VEX light shader was always an option
AO Material was option too, now it's gone(at least as one click access, of course we can build one or copy paste old one)

I think that many users want material library full of different materials for quick usage or for learning even if they never need to use them

Actually I'm pretty sure the Occlusion shader that was in the gallery didn't work with the new lighting setup anyway, it error'ed out. I think it's a moving forward sort of thing, leave behind as much of the old ways as possible. Personally, it doesn't bother me, but I see your point.

Cheers,

J.C.

i am not really that much concerned about it since i am aware of ability to use shaders for AO
i just see it strange to remove something which is usable

i have used plain occlusion many times, it don't need any light so it should be independent of any lighting setup. It's just how i was used to work, not necessarily using Occlusion from palette but my custom occlusion shader, but the workflow was the same. I found it faster than environment light, at least in H10

maybe it's just my tendency to use the shader over env light because i am coming from other package and i see it more customizable i can make my own pointcloud optimization or kind of turn off selfshadows or other things i find difficult with env light

therefore i think that making users aware of the material way is a good thing because putting one technique over another just because someone prefers it is not quite right

sorry if it sounds too negative, i was just surprised to see that message
nothing bad happened
cheers

One thing to note is that the environment light in H11 actually wraps up occlusion, in addition to the existing environment as area light sampling technique. You can change the rendering mode to occlusion with the rendering mode parameter, and get pretty much the same performance and flexibility you would have available with occlusion using the available approaches in H10.

The occlusion material in the material palette was removed because the material was broken, and it seemed to be redundant. Using a light is flexible since it makes it possible to keep the existing surface shaders (with textures, etc) and add on occlusion, without the need to modify the shader. Of course, you can still build in occlusion in the shader using the occlusion VOP if you choose.

With this in mind, if you still think there's a compelling reason to have an occlusion material we'd be willing to consider adding it back in.

Andrew

i see now that using occlusion material can be considered old way

my point was only that material way provides user the flexibility to tweak the shader the way he wants, either it is surface shader or template light shader which adds occlusion on top. In env light it's blackboxed and user can't even assign Export Variable if he wants isolate AO image plane or can he?
Removing material from palette seemed for me as hiding this option for new users, but i guess they will discover it if they really need it

the reasons for adding back Occ Material from my point of view can be:
1. many users coming from other packages are looking for occlusion material because they are used to it and know how to use it
there is common workflow to create another take(pass) and override materials on desired objects with occ material. Maybe later with it's customized version with more features
2. if i want pure AO pass which is also common output i still need to override materials on all desired objects for white clay or lambert mat and create env light in AO mode to get that pass, so directly overriding with AO mat seems easier
3. if i want just add AO lighting to final image on top of existing materials then env light AO is good but can i separate it then as single Image Plane?
4. not that much about Occ material but in VEX GI Light there is an option for transparent AO which is very usable, i've read that env light's AO is using VEX GI light under the hood, does it offer that functionality by default? or do i still need to make light template with VEX GI shader to acheive this?

sorry for this thread if it causes you some unpleasant reading and it's taking your time. I don't want you to add back occlusion material if it was broken. It's not about certain occ material but more about the workflow behind the occlusion shader/material and the flexibility it offers in some situations

i am fully aware that nothing has changed so this thread can be considered redundant
i was just a little scared about the blackboxing tendency i can feel from this
i would be much happier to be able to build up env light(or any light) from some elemental nodes than putting one big node with many parameters in the scene. Therefore i still tend to use the shader way, it just seems more flexible and modular to me

Houdini 11.0.477: Remove the occlusion material, since the recommended way to render ambient occlusion is using the environment light.

Who says ? Can you include a environment light in a lighting loop ? . I use the occlusion material all the time in my lighting pipeline. Can we have it back and working please ?

rob

circusmonkey

Houdini 11.0.477: Remove the occlusion material, since the recommended way to render ambient occlusion is using the environment light.

Who says ? Can you include a environment light in a lighting loop ? . I use the occlusion material all the time in my lighting pipeline. Can we have it back and working please ?

rob

they are removing only occ material from palette not the occlusion VOP, so you should be ok

Our goal was to focus people's attention on one way of getting occlusion instead of presenting two ways that are completely different. It would be great to hear from more people who would like to see occlusion on the shader.

Your feedback on this issue is very helpful. Another question is whether or not you would want the occlusion vop in the Mantra Surface material - this could provide an occlusion export which is independent from the diffuse and specular lighting and you would not need to create a separate pass with unique shader assignments.

Some sample scenes with your preferred lighting setup would also help us determine how people like to prepare their output channels in production (if you have any time…)

Thanks,
Robert

rmagee
Our goal was to focus people's attention on one way of getting occlusion instead of presenting two ways that are completely different. It would be great to hear from more people who would like to see occlusion on the shader.

Your feedback on this issue is very helpful. Another question is whether or not you would want the occlusion vop in the Mantra Surface material - this could provide an occlusion export which is independent from the diffuse and specular lighting and you would not need to create a separate pass with unique shader assignments.

Some sample scenes with your preferred lighting setup would also help us determine how people like to prepare their output channels in production (if you have any time…)

Thanks,
Robert

I want to know if sesi will look into the tech used in Avatar to calc occusion .
http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=1778765.177877 [portal.acm.org]

hi!
Occlusion in Mantra Surface Material as an export is a good idea.
Also it would be really great to calculate occlusion with respect of direct lighting, so where the direct lights shine there would be no occlusion(as in life), or the user could adjust the weight in those areas.

And while at occlusion with Mantra Surface Material, there could be an export for reflection occlusion too.

i think that better than AO in Surface Model directly can there be a way that Surface Model will detect AO env light and will create an AO Image Plane if it has effect on it?
in this case light AO shader seems more logical to me since it behaves as a light

at least my usage is either pure AO shader that replaces Surface Shader or AO light which adds to other lights and behaves as light and therefore can be exported as per light export, but it will be great to be able to export it separately to avoid bunch of files from other lights
But I use the later method mainly because it can detect opacity in the shaders and takes it into account

what i like to see in Surface Material though is light dispersion and thin-film interference
it would be great if such effects will be included also as VOP nodes for users to use in their shaders
or maybe some optional pointcloud optimization for Blurry Reflections/refractions like in SSS would be great
but i guess i am little off topic of this thread here

You can export per-light exports using the surface model VOP in micropolygon/raytrace or with any material using PBR. This way, the envlight with AO will appear in a per-light plane for the “direct_diffuse” export.

Andrew