yeah Houdini seems to have had the most customizable interface over max/maya with the ability to tear off views and have multiple contexts/types of views.

Wether the H9 is more/less efficient than H8 is up for debate but Houdini certainly has the best node-based workflow all around. Much better than any compositing app I've worked with, and clearly the best in the 3D world.

In keeping up with the customizable part of Houdini I'd vote for a node-aspect ratio customizable option.

Joe
In short, we're quite happy with the new node look, and we don't currently see any reason to change it.

This reminds me of one of those demotivational joke posters about customer service

“We're not satisfied until your not satisfied”

who is “WE”, cuz it doesn't sound like the end user is included in that statement, is “WE” the people who decided to fix it for the dummys that don't know any better? cuz that sounds like what your are saying.

I'm starting to get a bad vibe from the SESI people these days. Is it really we artists need SESI so we can kiss your butts and like it? Or maybe your only concern now is Maya users on the bubble and old timers can move on? While your at fixing things, I hope you fixed all the bugs in the crappy dynamics, cuz Maya has an amazing new dynamics system, and I think I will start pushing that platform, untill SESI decides artists are more important than attractive looking GUI's.

But really, I do see a reason to change my platform, which I thought would never happen. Thanks for the help SESI !! give your selves a pat on the back.

andrewlowell
…but Houdini certainly has the best node-based workflow all around. Much better than any compositing app I've worked with, …

I'd give that award to Nuke, and I hope SESI could draw some inspiration from it, like a truly useful scalable network view, the capability to build your networks in which direction you see fit (horizontal, vertical or any combination), easily selectable nodes (which incidentally are also easily stackable) and big, easy to grab input and output pipes.
All coming in user customizable colors

Phenom
While your at fixing things, I hope you fixed all the bugs…

While this is off-topic, I have to admit the amount of bugs I discover every day in H9 is quite worrying. And many of them deal with the new UI and will hurt precisely the innocent new user coming from another package who, for example, would expect the Shelf tools to actually work (which many times is not the case at all).

Dragos

Phenom

Joe
I'm starting to get a bad vibe from the SESI people these days. Is it really we artists need SESI so we can kiss your butts and like it? Or maybe your only concern now is Maya users on the bubble and old timers can move on? While your at fixing things, I hope you fixed all the bugs in the crappy dynamics, cuz Maya has an amazing new dynamics system, and I think I will start pushing that platform, untill SESI decides artists are more important than attractive looking GUI's.

true

While this is off-topic, I have to admit the amount of bugs I discover every day in H9 is quite worrying. And many of them deal with the new UI and will hurt precisely the innocent new user coming from another package who, for example, would expect the Shelf tools to actually work (which many times is not the case at all).

I would hope you're reporting all the bugs you find. If you don't report them, we can't fix them.

Joe
The nodes are wider but much less tall, meaning you can stack many more of them in the same relative space. This, combined with the fact that all networks (other than VOPs and SHOPs) are now vertical makes networks much more efficient.

In short, we're quite happy with the new node look, and we don't currently see any reason to change it.

wow - your happy with the new nodes! this sorta makes me crazy - do actually do any production in houdini? you comments do smack of an arrogance which is neither helpful, nor nice to hear.

it seems that your forgetting that it's us the *users* who have to use the software day in day out. if we're not happy, then somethings wrong. thats the only metric that should matter to you. geez! sesi used to be so responsive to it's *customers*.

the new node layout isn't working for us in *production*. it makes the networks more cluttered and therefore less readable. thats a *bad* thing. i would happily trade some vertical space for that horizontal space anyday. please roll things back - they worked better before. it was an interesting experiment - but please listen to the people who have to use the software.

btw, try using nuke. it kicks houdini's ass right now from the usability point of view. there's some lessons to be learnt from it. ie, it's got 10's of unimplemented RFE's that we've all been asking for since houdini 1.0.

Joe

xionmark
I'm sorry Joe, but this is getting dangerously close to “Programmer Knows Best” territory.

Programmers had almost nothing to do with the current look of Houdini 9, and it shows. H8 was designed by programmers, and boy does it show.

groan. yes, the ui looks simple and even naive. however, it seems all the top houdini users preferred it from the workflow aspect. put it this way h8:
- displayed more information in less space
- was easier to read (less cluttered)

…and your calling the new h9 as *success*? hmmmm.
…and all the top users are unhappy - but your ok? hmm.

Let my add my two cents to the many others (it's gotten to quite a few bucks already)

IMHO the nodes do look quite much better (I really like the appearance, less bevels, etc, very elegant), but they feel worse. I don't know which designer created the appearance, but obviously not enough time was spent with real production networks to evaluate the overall experience.

Like many stated before, the reduction of height is useful, but only in case of a more linear graph work flow, which is only the case for an atypical Houdini scene. What we have in practice is many branches, crossing line connectors, etc. Additionally, the connectors themselves are problematic - why so narrow - when you connect you need as wide area on the node as possible to wire stuff quickly, otherwise you start aiming to the connector area…slow and painful (physically) after a while…

Maybe there is a lot more to it then meets the eye, but I fail to see why SESI can't just slightly shorten the width and make the connector areas (in/out) span the entire width of the node - it will keep the new look…


On the subject of bugs: Is there a publicly available bug database? Where one can see if the bug/“feature” has already been reported? This should avoid any double-triple posting of the same bug (with different formulations from different people). Or perhaps there is such a thing, and I've missed it

diula
Maybe there is a lot more to it then meets the eye, but I fail to see why SESI can't just slightly shorten the width and make the connector areas (in/out) span the entire width of the node - it will keep the new look…

i've forgotten how many times this has been asked for during the alpha and beta testing. apparently we've all got this wrong - but just haven't realised it yet. sigh.

Joe

I would hope you're reporting all the bugs you find. If you don't report them, we can't fix them.

Joe, I think you're missing the point. If you are going to tell people you are perfectly happy, and don't see any reason to change it, maybe you should spend more effort trying to be perfectly happy with the functionality of the software rather than how pretty it looks when you open it up. Unless of course SESI is planning on just selling Houdini, which would make making it pretty more important than making it functional, leave that to the next guy.

I think you should take the advice of people who are using product everyday, not only to make a living, but to make art. I wonder how much GPU power your a sucking up with that. Do you think we only have 1 high end app open at a time? You should give the option between classcic interface and new design, or better yet, take a vote. I loved SESI because when I started in this biz, I felt SESI was about people who love making things, not only work, but work well. It seems this standard has fallen to the wayside, and submitting bug reports leads only to work around options.

Here is my bug report-

slow your roll son, lest you step on a tiger's tail again.

:?: :!:

:idea: Everyone chill out.

Obviously there are some people who really hate the new UI, and others that like it enough that SESI haven't changed it. I can think of a few “top users” who like it enough. I personally would hate to see a full return to the old UI. There may be room for improvement in the new one. Auto layout is one that comes to mind, node width may be another. Maybe it's time for a poll?

Cheers

I have no problem at all with the overall new look - I've always thought it looks a little more 21st century. I think the issue is the node aspect ratio, and assorted related UI issues. I agree that a certain degree of chilling out is in order, although there's a certain Jerry Springer atmosphere that's sort of happening and I can't look away…

Cheers,

J.C.

just speaking personally but I've never gotten a bad vibe from anyone at SESI, they seem very open to all kinds of ideas, and just the fact that you see them on this forum is pretty amazing to me.

Try suggesting things to autodesk, I'd liken that vibe to a wallmart debate on gun sales.

andrewlowell
Try suggesting things to autodesk, I'd liken that vibe to a wallmart debate on gun sales.

They still don't remotely achieve SESI response times even with super-expensive Platinum support I might add.

We all know that email can be a misleading communication tool, and not jump to wild conclusions about an entire company based on a snippet of ascii from one person.

If this is Jerry Springer, when do we find out that Houdini 8 fathered an illegitimate baby with XSI and Autodesk never knew…

Cheers

I'm still waiting to see Mental Ray fight VRay over who slept with my 14 year old patent

I feel perfectly entitled to my tirade, just as Joe and apparently, according to Joe everyone at SESI feels “WE” are perfectly happy with it, and see no need to change it, in the middle of discussion about reasons why some want it changed, or at least given the option to customize what is, whether real or perceived, something that is both more cumbersome, and a less functional style.

Others have their own opinion, which is why I asked for a vote, what do the users think, should we have an option of the aspect ratio of nodes, should we be locked into one or the other? Sounds fair and rational to me.

Personally I found Joe's across the board statement of “WE” are perfectly happy with it and see no reason to change it, implying the entire company of SESI see's no reason to listen to anyone else about what it is doing with the software. This is coming from a representitive of the company, therefore a blanket statement of SESI is getting a bad attitude, is in order. That's kind of how representing a business works. Sorry, but that's life, not Jerry Springer, maybe you should try doing more buisiness, and watching less daytime TV.

Phenom
… maybe you should try doing more buisiness, and watching less daytime TV.

Can we save inflammatory sarcastic comments from anonymous logins for cgtalk.com please? JC and Andrew have driven H9 forward hugely, and at no small effort; some respect, please?

I have never gotten a bad vibe from any at SESI ever. Perhaps Joe's wording was a little defensive and touched a nerve but, please, we can work together on this I think. SESI, more than any other software development company, are all open-minded individuals.

Phenom
Personally I found Joe's across the board statement of “WE” are perfectly happy with it and see no reason to change it, implying the entire company of SESI see's no reason to listen to anyone else about what it is doing with the software. This is coming from a representitive of the company, therefore a blanket statement of SESI is getting a bad attitude, is in order.

Most of the time, the SESI people who respond here – as was Joe's case – represent themselves and not the whole company. They are people made out of flesh and blood and as passionate about their work as you are about yours. It was basic human passion in Joe's voice, not an ounce of arrogance. Unfortunately, when today's corporate world teaches you that each sound-bite is carefully brushed by marketing and combed by corporate lawyers, reading a SESI message on this forum naturally makes you believe that the same rules apply to us. Well, for better or worse, they do not. We think our direct approach and our approachability are a good thing, and want everyone in our company to have a voice. We might not answer quite every message, every gripe, every explosive discourse, but when we do, we put all of ourselves in the reply and sometimes even a little more…

If you felt misled by any words spoken by any of us here, I sincerely apologize. I only hope that you believe me when I say that we are not deaf, arrogant, or ignorant of your wishes. And I hope you can see in Joe's other posts how much he cares, like we all do, about balance and reason.

The official SESI position on the node tiles, since there's no escaping now :-), is that we are pleased with the LOOK of the new node tiles, but realize that a good number of expert users find the ratio unbefitting the typical layout of heavy production-level networks. While we are not going to make a change in tomorrow's build, we are never against change. We do indeed see reasons to modifiy the original design, but “if”, “how” and “when” do not always have the most obvious answers. The basic truth is that we constantly monitor feedback and adjust our development course to the best of our ability and with the interests of ALL our users in mind.

Cristin Barghiel
Director of Product Development

xionmark

Joe
Programmers had almost nothing to do with the current look of Houdini 9, and it shows.

Interns … :roll:

WRONG! - Interns got ZERO say in the development of the nodes (especially not the LA Interns).

Thank you cb and Jason for bringing sanity back to this thread.

As for the vote - I like the look of the nodes and the GUI in general. It works great for me in production. H8 and Maya make my eyes bleed compared to H9. And Houdini is so powerful I personally would rather suck up UI imperfections and ask the developers to fix bugs (which you don't get to gripe about if you aren't reporting them!!! - Right on Joe!!).

Would it be possible to add an option for “Classic networkview”.
This would allow those that are happy with the new look to continue using it and those that prefer the “Classic” version to have their way also.

Just spreading som oil on the waters to calm them down.